<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Hi Eelke,<br>
    <br>
    Thank you.  I am interested in the population structure of
    non-flowering, male, and female individuals because the multiple
    populations that I have studied have very different sex-ratios.  I
    don't think at this time I need to include marriage functions
    because seed production in this species can be pollen limited even
    when there are high densities of males.<br>
    <br>
    I've begun writing code with the series of conditional probabilities
    and there certainly are many parameters.  I may be posting more
    specific questions soon.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers,<br>
    <br>
    Christpher<br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/9/2014 5:37 PM, Eelke Jongejans
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:53962907.3060307@science.ru.nl" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      Dear Christopher,<br>
      <br>
      there are probably multiple ways to do what you're describing, but
      I guess your modelling choices also depend on what you want to
      achieve. Is it the population trends you are interested in, and/or
      the population structure of non-flowering, male and female
      flowering individuals? If you are just interested in seed
      production and assume that pollen is not limiting, a
      size-dependent female-flowering probability in the F matrix might
      be enough. You would then have a size-structured model and no need
      for additional states. I guess you could even translate the stable
      size distribution to proportions males and females. However, if
      you do need males as a state, the options you describe should
      work: either model a series of conditional probabilities as
      functions of the previous state and size of individuals, or use
      multinomial models. The number of needed parameters will increase
      rapidly if you want both size and state transitions to depend on
      both previous size and previous stage. Or are you interested to
      include 'marriage functions' as well? Not sure if you could
      include those with just size as a continuous state variable and
      size-dependent male and female flowering probabilities. Anyone?<br>
      <br>
      As for IPMpack: we now do accomodate simple age x size IPMs, but I
      don't think you can make such a complicated size x flowering stage
      IPM with IPMpack functions only. Probably (as often when you want
      to include very complex life histories) you will have to develop
      code to construct your own IPM. However, it is often very useful
      to use bits and pieces of IPMpack to achieve this (e.g. by using
      IPMpack functions to create survival, growth and fecundity objects
      for subsets of individuals). <br>
      <br>
      best wishes,<br>
      Eelke<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09-Jun-14 8:03 PM, Christopher
        Heckel wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:1402337029788.78084@hillsdale.edu"
        type="cite">
        <style type="text/css" style="display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} .ms-cui-menu {background-color:#ffffff;border:1px rgb(171, 171, 171) solid;font-family:'Segoe UI WPC','Segoe UI',Tahoma,'Microsoft Sans Serif',Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);} .ms-cui-menusection-title {display:none;} .ms-cui-ctl {vertical-align:text-top;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);} .ms-cui-ctl-on {background-color:rgb(223, 237, 250);opacity: 0.8;} .ms-cui-img-cont-float {display:inline-block;margin-top:2px} .ms-cui-smenu-inner {padding-top:0px;} .ms-owa-paste-option-icon {margin: 0px 6px 0px 6px;vertical-align:middle!important;padding-bottom: 2px;display:inline-block;} .ms-rtePasteFlyout-option:hover {background-color:rgb(223, 237, 250) !important;opacity:1 !important;} .ms-rtePasteFlyout-option {padding:8px 4px 8px 4px;outline:none;} .ms-cui-menusection {float:left; width:85px;height:24px;overflow:hidden}.wf {speak:none; font-weight:normal; font-variant
:n
ormal; text-transform:none; -webkit-font-smoothing:antialiased; vertical-align:middle; display:inline-block;}.wf-family-owa {font-family:'o365Icons'}@font-face {  font-family:'o365IconsIE8';  src:url('https://r4.res.outlook.com/owa/prem/16.0.236.13/resources/styles/office365icons.ie8.eot?#iefix') format('embedded-opentype'),         url('https://r4.res.outlook.com/owa/prem/16.0.236.13/resources/styles/office365icons.ie8.woff') format('woff'),         url('https://r4.res.outlook.com/owa/prem/16.0.236.13/resources/styles/office365icons.ie8.ttf') format('truetype');  font-weight:normal;  font-style:normal;}@font-face {  font-family:'o365IconsMouse';  src:url('https://r4.res.outlook.com/owa/prem/16.0.236.13/resources/styles/office365icons.mouse.eot?#iefix') format('embedded-opentype'),         url('https://r4.res.outlook.com/owa/prem/16.0.236.13/resources/styles/office365icons.mouse.woff') format('woff'),         url('https://r4.res.outlook.com/owa/prem/16.0.236.13/resources/styles/offi
c
e365icons.mouse.ttf') format('truetype');  font-weight:normal;  font-style:normal;}.wf-family-owa {font-family:'o365IconsMouse'}.ie8 .wf-family-owa {font-family:'o365IconsIE8'}.ie8 .wf-owa-play-large:before {content:'\e254';}.notIE8 .wf-owa-play-large:before {content:'\e054';}.ie8 .wf-owa-play-large {color:#FFFFFF/*$WFWhiteColor*/;}.notIE8 .wf-owa-play-large {border-color:#FFFFFF/*$WFWhiteColor*/; width:1.4em; height:1.4em; border-width:.1em; border-style:solid; border-radius:.8em; text-align:center; box-sizing:border-box; -moz-box-sizing:border-box; padding:0.1em; color:#FFFFFF/*$WFWhiteColor*/;}.ie8 .wf-size-play-large {width:40px; height:40px; font-size:30px}.notIE8 .wf-size-play-large {width:40px; height:40px; font-size:30px}.notIE8 .wf-owa-triangle-down-small:before {content:'\e052';}.ie8 .wf-owa-triangle-down-small:before { content:'\e052';}.ie8 .wf-owa-triangle-down-small {color:#666666/*$WFGreyColor*/;}.wf-size-x20 {font-size: 20px!important;}
<!--
p
        {margin-top:0;
        margin-bottom:0}
.ms-cui-menu
        {background-color:#ffffff;
        border:1px rgb(171,171,171) solid;
        font-family:'Segoe UI WPC','Segoe UI',Tahoma,'Microsoft Sans Serif',Verdana,sans-serif;
        font-size:10pt;
        color:rgb(51,51,51)}
.ms-cui-menusection-title
        {}
.ms-cui-ctl
        {vertical-align:text-top;
        text-decoration:none;
        color:rgb(51,51,51)}
.ms-cui-ctl-on
        {background-color:rgb(223,237,250)}
.ms-cui-img-cont-float
        {display:inline-block;
        margin-top:2px}
.ms-cui-smenu-inner
        {padding-top:0px}
.ms-owa-paste-option-icon
        {margin:0px 6px 0px 6px;
        vertical-align:middle!important;
        padding-bottom:2px;
        display:inline-block}
.ms-rtePasteFlyout-option
        {padding:8px 4px 8px 4px;
        outline:none}
.ms-cui-menusection
        {float:left;
        width:85px;
        height:24px;
        overflow:hidden}
.wf
        {speak:none;
        font-weight:normal;
        font-variant:normal;
        text-transform:none;
        vertical-align:middle;
        display:inline-block}
.wf-family-owa
        {font-family:'o365Icons'}
@font-face
        {font-family:'o365IconsIE8';
        font-weight:normal;
        font-style:normal}
@font-face
        {font-family:'o365IconsMouse';
        font-weight:normal;
        font-style:normal}
.wf-family-owa
        {font-family:'o365IconsMouse'}
.ie8 .wf-family-owa
        {font-family:'o365IconsIE8'}
.notIE8 .wf-owa-play-large
        {border-color:#FFFFFF;
        width:1.4em;
        height:1.4em;
        border-width:.1em;
        border-style:solid;
        text-align:center;
        padding:0.1em;
        color:#FFFFFF}
.ie8 .wf-size-play-large
        {width:40px;
        height:40px;
        font-size:30px}
.notIE8 .wf-size-play-large
        {width:40px;
        height:40px;
        font-size:30px}
.wf-size-x20
        {font-size:20px!important}
-->
--></style>
        <div id="OWAFontStyleDivID"
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
          <style type="text/css" style="">
<!--
p
        {margin-top:0;
        margin-bottom:0}
.ms-cui-menu
        {background-color:#ffffff;
        border:1px rgb(171,171,171) solid;
        font-family:'Segoe UI WPC','Segoe UI',Tahoma,'Microsoft Sans Serif',Verdana,sans-serif;
        font-size:10pt;
        color:rgb(51,51,51)}
.ms-cui-menusection-title
        {}
.ms-cui-ctl
        {vertical-align:text-top;
        text-decoration:none;
        color:rgb(51,51,51)}
.ms-cui-ctl-on
        {background-color:rgb(223,237,250)}
.ms-cui-img-cont-float
        {display:inline-block;
        margin-top:2px}
.ms-cui-smenu-inner
        {padding-top:0px}
.ms-owa-paste-option-icon
        {margin:0px 6px 0px 6px;
        vertical-align:middle!important;
        padding-bottom:2px;
        display:inline-block}
.ms-rtePasteFlyout-option
        {padding:8px 4px 8px 4px;
        outline:none}
.ms-cui-menusection
        {float:left;
        width:85px;
        height:24px;
        overflow:hidden}
.wf
        {speak:none;
        font-weight:normal;
        font-variant:normal;
        text-transform:none;
        vertical-align:middle;
        display:inline-block}
.wf-family-owa
        {font-family:'o365Icons'}
@font-face
        {font-family:'o365IconsIE8';
        font-weight:normal;
        font-style:normal}
@font-face
        {font-family:'o365IconsMouse';
        font-weight:normal;
        font-style:normal}
.wf-family-owa
        {font-family:'o365IconsMouse'}
.ie8 .wf-family-owa
        {font-family:'o365IconsIE8'}
.notIE8 .wf-owa-play-large
        {border-color:#FFFFFF;
        width:1.4em;
        height:1.4em;
        border-width:.1em;
        border-style:solid;
        text-align:center;
        padding:0.1em;
        color:#FFFFFF}
.ie8 .wf-size-play-large
        {width:40px;
        height:40px;
        font-size:30px}
.notIE8 .wf-size-play-large
        {width:40px;
        height:40px;
        font-size:30px}
.wf-size-x20
        {font-size:20px!important}
-->
</style>
          <div id="OWAFontStyleDivID" style="font-size:12pt;
            color:#000000; background-color:#FFFFFF;
            font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
            <p>Hello all,</p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p><span dir="ltr"><font color="black"
                  face="Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" size="3"><span
                    style="font-size:12pt;background-color:white;">I
                    would like to use IPMs to model the population
                    dynamics of a plant that is not only an iteroparous
                    perennial, but also exhibits size-dependent gender
                    switching.  Generally for this species (<em>Arisaema
                      triphyllum</em>) plants progress from
                    non-flowering to male-flowering to female-flowering
                    over the course of several years depending mainly on
                    biomass accumulation.  However, plants also can
                    retrogress to previous states; for example, a plant
                    that was female in year t could return as male in
                    year t+1.  </span></font></span></p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p>My questions:</p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p>1. I think I need to set this up as a
              stage-size-dependent IPM but I am unsure how to allow
              individuals to move back and forth between stages.</p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p>2. I can use polytomous logistic regression to find
              size-based transition probabilities among the three stages
              with greater power compared to a series of binomial
              logistic regressions.</p>
            <p>    a. Is polytomous log-reg appropriate for this?</p>
            <p>    b. Could IPMpack tools handle this?</p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p>Thanks to all for any suggestions to help get me moving
              forward.</p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p>Christopher Heckel<br>
            </p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p>PhD candidate<br>
            </p>
            <p>University of Pittsburgh<br>
            </p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
IPMpack-users mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:IPMpack-users@lists.r-forge.r-project.org">IPMpack-users@lists.r-forge.r-project.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.r-forge.r-project.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ipmpack-users">http://lists.r-forge.r-project.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ipmpack-users</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>